Ok
here we Go!
First
of all, to those who don't know what we are talking about (the 70weeks),
can read it in your bibles in Daniel 9:24-27. The Vision given to David
(the author) basically was to give Israel a Foreshadow for there future.
OK so at the end of the 70 "weeks" Israel will have Repented of
All her Disobedience to God. And Having done this she will thereafter live
in everlasting righteousness vs.9:24.Seventy
weeks are determined for you people and for you holy city, To finish the
transgression, to make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for
iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and
prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy
now for this vs. we must read it first. vs.9:25.Know
therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to
restore and Build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven
weeks and sixty-two weeks; The Street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
Notice though it says seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. why didn't it say
sixty-nine weeks instead? well cause there two separate times. The time
that Israel is given a command to restore Jerusalem, to the time that
Jesus is revealed, Is 62 weeks. OK so whats the seven weeks. well this is
what gets confusing, 1 week = 49 years in this case (seven sevens of
years)But in the 62 weeks a 1 week = 7 years.Another reason that these two
are seperated.
Huh?? we will get back to that, i promise. OK now around 444.b.c. to
445.b.c. Araxerxes gave such a command, In otherwards he decreed that the
Jews could return to Jerusalem to rebuild it. now if we know that this is
the starting command, that launches the 7 weeks, then lets count 49 from
444-5 and you get 395b.c. which also happens to be the exact time that it
is recorded that it took Israel to rebuild Jerusalem. Now we add the 62
weeks(434years) to 395.b.c. and you get around 33A.D......Hmm Keep that in
the back of your head. were coming right back to that.
Now for the next verse. vs.9:26..And
after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, But not for himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come, Shall destroy the city and
the sanctuary.** The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of
the war desolation's are determined.
OK so after the 62 weeks the messiah will be "cut off" or hmm
Crucified? and then the destruction would be started on Jerusalem and
would not end till the end of the 70 "week".
OK this is the Gap period. See first of all we know that the 62 weeks ends
when Jesus is pronounced the Messiah. So if the 70th week started right
after the 69th then we would have already gone thru the tribulation, which
is in the 70th week and also is in the next verse.
This gap is also known now as the Church age and it started when Jerusalem
is "Ravaged". Now lets take a quick look at Luke 19:43-44.
For the days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment
around you, Surround you and close you in on every side, And level you,
and your children with you, to the ground; and they will no leave in you
one stone upon another, because you did not know time of your
visitation." **Now
in 70A.D Jerusalem was TOTALLY destroyed! And there was Literally no stone
left unturned! That was recorded in history, even the stone unturned part.
if you want i can tell you about that latter.
OK so this just shows that its after the 62 weeks or in otherwards the 69
weeks (7 weeks and 62weeks).
Now on the final verse talks of the last week or the 70th week. lets look
at that verse. vs.9:27.Then
he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of
the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing
of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the
consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." Now
this is Considered a "Great tribulation" and represents the
tribulation period in Revelations. In which Israel will repent and thus we
all enter the Millennial time period. Now I can answer any other questions
involving this. It is very late here so IM going to rest.
Blessings to you all.
this all was from the NKJV
****
Discussing the "gap" theory:
Sorry this is a little bit long. I tried to be as short and thorough as possible.
Daniel 9:24 - Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Since we realize and agree that God is speaking with Daniel we understand that “Upon thy people” is referring to the Jews. “Upon thy holy city” is referring to Jerusalem. I believe we can agree that the rest said was confirmed and fulfilled by Jesus Messiah.
Daniel 9:25 - Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
These 70 weeks started from the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. From that point to Messiah the Prince is a total of 69 weeks (described as seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks). On this I think we agree.
Daniel 9:26 - And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
As you said or alluded to: “OK so after the 62 weeks the messiah will be "cut off" or hmm Crucified? ” Then it says, “the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;” We know that Jesus did not destroy the city and the sanctuary, so He is not the prince referred to in this verse. History tells us that the prince that was said to “shall come” was the Roman Emperor Vespasian (the prince of Rome), his son Titus brought about this destruction in 70 A.D. as representative of the prince of Rome. But this, “and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;” is a side note and is not the subject of these verses. The main subject was and is Messiah.
Daniel 9:27 - And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Did the week of confirming the many start with the ministry of John the Baptist then continue in Jesus’ 3 ˝ year ministry? It was said of him that he must come first and restore all things, preparing the way of the Lord (Jesus).
Matthew 17:10-13 - And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
Luke 7:27-29 - This is [he], of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. And all the people that heard [him], and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
Or maybe it should be looked at this way: was not Jesus earthly ministry
confirming His covenant with Jews, which lasted 3 ˝ years? And after His
death, burial, ascension and the pouring out of His Spirit at Pentecost,
didn’t He confirm His New Covenant with the Gentiles as well? That’s a
total of a week of confirming the covenant with many. From the baptism of
Jesus to His ascension was approximately 3 ˝ years. From His ascension to
the stoning of Stephen was another 3 ˝ years.
In the midst of the week can also be translated in the half of the week (3
˝ years). We know Jesus was crucified 3 ˝ years into his earthly
ministry. Maybe that’s why the sacrifice and the oblation were caused to
cease. No more were the blood of goats and rams needed to cover His people
year by year. He paid the ultimate sacrifice and no other sacrifice was/is
needed.
Ephesians 5:2 - And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Hebrews 9:26 - For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Notice this phrase, “He hath appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.” Go back to Daniel 9:24 and it uses the phrase “to make an end of sins.” This undoubtedly was showing that the revelation Daniel was being given was being brought to pass by Jesus according to the book of Hebrews.
Hebrews 10:4,5 - For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Hebrews 10:9 - Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
The “first” refers to the Old Covenant and the “second” refers to the New Covenant in His blood.
Hebrews 10:10 - By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].
Hebrews 10:12 - But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
I think that you believe Christ's sacrifice was completely sufficient, and
that He will not start accepting sacrifices again from the Jews, correct?
Because if God does start accepting sacrifices of sheep, goats, and rams
then that is to say that Jesus’ sacrifice was not sufficient for all
men’s sins (and that contradicts what He says in Hebrews) and therefore,
not truly the Messiah.
You said, “Now this is Considered a "Great tribulation" and
represents the tribulation period in Revelations. In which Israel will
repent and thus we all enter the Millennial time period.” Now it may be
considered popularly in “Christendom” that this is the “Great
Tribulation” to expect in the future, but your scriptures don’t
support a gap theory. The only reason many of “Christianity” believe
this to be in the future is because they believe there is some sort of
gap, not mentioned by God, between the 69th and 70th week. This gap has
been growing for centuries and centuries. To date, this gap is now over
1960+ years and counting with no scripture supporting this ever growing
number.
It’s possible and a reasonable expectation to believe that there is no
gap between the 69th and 70th week, just like there wasn’t a gap in any
of the previous weeks. Now if that be true, and I believe it is, should we
not have to reinterpret Daniel, Matthew 23-25, Luke 9 and 21, Mark 8 and
13? Let’s not even get into Revelation because if we don’t understand
the foundation of the prophecies that preceded it, we’re bound to jump
to all the wrong conclusions.
Ok
i understand your views.
Now the way i see it starts with this verse.
Secenty weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to
finish, .......and to anoint the most holy.
First of all,only at first view do you think that the 70 weeks are all
together. But I believe that ther just seventy weeks "desinated"
to the Jews. This would acount for the Gap.the gap is a period that doesnt
directly include the Jews, in other words the church age. I also think
that this reasoning is an explanation of why in the verses it segments the
weeks. The church age is for us not the jews, but Jesus's return and the
great tribulation IS for the jews. The whole purpose of the Tribulation
and Jesus to Return is for the jews to see that he was and is the Messiah
and that they missed him first, So that they will repent and be made
rightous.
I believe that the prince that is to come is the antichrist. Not the son
of the Prince of Rome. I think that just cause he is a represenitive of
the Prince and son that he is not the one that the verses speek of. That
seems to distant of a relationship to me.
SO the "he" in vs.26-27 ,I beleive, is refering to the antichris.
And "he" will make a covenant with Israel and then in the middle
will break his covenant and will attack. The last week of the seventy
weeks 7 years or one week. and this same time over and over and over again
is described in prophecy in the bible. Rarely if ever will you find a
prophecy that just mentions something once. God usualy has many prophesy
of an event. her are verses that refer to this last 7 years or one week.
Dan 7:25,12:7; Rev.11:2,3; 12:6, 12:14; 13:5.
now since he will break his covenant in the middle of the week that would
be 3&1/2 years which also matches the other scriptures. I Beleive
whole heartily that Jesus will return Soon. I beleive that this is just
One of Many Many prophecies that are happening around us now.
I feal that there is a great importance to realise this and Repent and
come to know Jesus befor its to late. For there will be a time soon where
the evil is increased greatly but also the Holy Spirit( for the Holy
Spirit is always greater) So we will see a split.Bigger than befor. We are
already living in days like that of Noah. Now i do believe that if someone
doesnt understand or interprete an earlier Prophecy then that doesnt mean
that they shouldnt try to understand the latter. For we are human and for
that same reason we are to check the word against any sermon, teaching,
and prophecy. Not cause that person isnt a man of God, For they can be a
man of God and Still give false prophecy, But cause everyone makes
mistakes.
Lord bless
our learnings and teachings. Put a guard on our mouths so that we may only
speak of your word and truth. Give us all understanding, wisdom and
knowledge of your word. I pray and ask for this to Golorify you. In Jesus
Name.
****
Bless you brother for our discussion. May we both learn from each others
words. I know i have.
I do enjoy this for it gives me even more reason to study the bible.
besides the study that i already do.
Gap theory continued...
Hi
****,
I’m glad we can discuss this peaceably. Many times people can’t
because they are adamantly opposed to any other view they don’t
understand or have never heard of. This isn’t an issue of a man’s
salvation, so I agree and hope that Jesus would lead us and guide us
during our sharing together, as He said, “the anointing will teach you
all things.”
I pray that we are gathered together in Jesus name to ensure that He is in
the midst of us. He is more than willing to teach those who will listen.
Jesus, open our ears to hear you, our eyes to see you, and our hearts to
comprehend you and the wonderful plan you have for us, in Jesus’ name,
Amen.
You said, “First of all, only at first view do you think that the 70
weeks are all together.” I respond by saying the scriptures do not leave
us with another view to accept. It doesn’t tell us to expect a gap.
You said, “But I believe that ther just seventy weeks “desinated” to
the Jews.” If you meant you believe the 70 weeks are specifically
designated to the Jews, then I agree, more specifically Jerusalem.
You said, “This would account for the Gap.the gap is a period that
doesn’t directly include the Jews, in other words the church age.” You
still have not accounted for the “gap” scripturally. Your still
assuming it’s there simply because that is what someone, not the
scriptures, must have taught you. The scriptures don’t speak of a
“gap” in the 70 weeks. The “gap” and the “church age” are not
in the scriptures. Then again, neither is the word “Bible”, but I hope
you understand my point.
You said, “…but Jesus’s return and the great tribulation IS for the
jews. The whole purpose of the Tribulation and Jesus to Return is for the
jews to see that he was and is the Messiah and the they missed him
first,…” Agreed, however, what you might fail to realize (and I say
this respectfully) is that the tribulation and judgment spoken of against
the Jews by the prophets in the Old Covenant and Jesus Himself was
fulfilled to a “T” according to the words they spoke. (I will try to
introduce you to the scriptures later.)
Concerning, “So that they will repent and be made rightous.” We must
at this point define a Jew, scripturally. God was not just the God of
Israel. He was God, the Father of all creation, and that includes all men.
It was only the nation of Israel (in the Old Covenant) that acknowledged
this and would not bow before any other gods (compared to other nations).
God’s plan has always been to redeem his creation (referring to all
mankind). Not just this race or that race. Anyone (from Adam to today),
who would humble himself and pray and seek His face would find Him and be
answered, not just a natural Jew. Notice not even Abraham was a Jew. He
was a foreigner/stranger. It has always been those that come to Him in
faith will be answered. Repent to be made righteous by the blood of Jesus
is for all men, not just for natural Israel.
You said, “I believe the prince that is to come is the antichrist.”
That is your belief, but show me scriptures that point to this prince of
Daniel 9:26 to be antichrist? This description of a prince coming to
destroy the city and the sanctuary was a prophecy given by Jesus, which I
will show you a little later. (*** - Look for this at the end)
I think you misunderstood me when I was simply trying to give you
historical information regarding the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. I
was simply stating that Rome destroyed Jerusalem. The 10th Emperor (or
prince – scripturally speaking) of Rome was Vespasian. His army general
happened to be his son Titus that led the siege against Jerusalem. I was
not trying to link scriptural significance with the son Titus and the Emperor
(prince).
For example, when King David committed adultery with Bathsheba there was a
war going on. David was not at the site of the battle. He was in his
castle (per say). Israel won that war/battle. We could also say that King
David won that battle. His army represented him and the kingdom of Israel.
So when Titus won the war against the Jews, we could say, and we do, that
Rome desolated the city (Jerusalem) and the temple (holy sanctuary).
You said, “And “he” will make a covenant with Israel and then in the
middle will break his covenant and will attack.” Again, someone must
have taught you to interpret the scriptures that way by what you said.
Someone (or maybe movies) taught you to expect this to happen, because
scripture doesn’t say “he” will make a covenant with Israel. It
says, “He empowers a covenant with many for a week”, not a covenant
with Israel, but with many. It never says in that scripture that he will
break his covenant and attack. None of these words are used, except
“he”. It says “he” will cause the sacrifice and the oblations to
cease. That’s it. To interpret more by adding to this is not wise to
gain understanding.
Regarding Daniel 7:25, I have to get you references, but I will try to
tell you off the top of my head. Vespasian was the 10th Emperor of Rome. If
my memory serves me correct Nero was the 6th Emperor that persecuted
Christians heavily (historically). One of the previous five emperors
fulfilled this verse in Daniel 7:25 {I'm still seeking the Truth regarding
this though}. To give you an idea (scripturally) of
what I’m trying to convey here read Apocalypse 17:10.
“And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.”
John, the apostle, wrote this during the reign of the 6th king for he
says, “one is” meaning one is presently reigning now.
Regarding Daniel 12:7, Apocalypse 11:2,3; 12:6,14; 13:5 I will only say
this: The siege of Jerusalem that left it completely desolated (including
the temple – sanctuary) lasted “For a season, seasons, and an
half…” 3 ˝ years or 1260 days, and I don’t believe we can brush
this off and say its coincidence.
You said, “I beleive that this is just One of the Many Many prophecies
that are happening around us now” and “We are already living in days
like that of Noah.” It’s very easy to try and make current events
prophetic. Let me simply say this: Man has been doing that for centuries
and have said, “Oh, this is when it’s happening! Because…” and
they have all been found to be wrong. Because of this track record
therefore, I say, we cannot interpret scripture using current events.
Let’s interpret scripture with scripture. Interpreting scripture through
current events is slanted according to the paradigm we have made in our
mind of what we have come to expect.
Example: “They” said that when Israel reformed in 1948 that within 40
years (because that is considered one generation scripturally) the
tribulation was to come and these prophecies that we think are future were
supposed to happen. It didn’t. Then they changed it and said by 1998,
for a myriad of reasons. The date keeps on changing and the years keep on
counting. This is like building a house on sinking sand. Let’s find the
Rock!
You said, “I feal that there is a great importance to realize this and
Repent and come to know Jesus before its to late.” Absolutely, because
the gospel message of the kingdom, preached from Pentecost and throughout
Acts to this very day, is unchanged. However, it should not be preached
out of a fear that He’s coming back, but rather we are His instruments
(kings and priests), His body, in which He is using to reconcile the world
to Himself through the evangelism we see in Acts.
You said, “We are already living in days like that of Noah.”
Luke 17:26-31 - And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Jesus gives two examples of what the days of the Son of Man shall be like.
He used Noah and Lot. Judgment was brought about by the flood to destroy
all of the wicked, unrepentant of the world. Noah and his family were not
destroyed, but they entered the ark, and were LEFT BEHIND on earth.
Lot went out from Sodom and the judgment destroyed Sodom. But Lot was LEFT
BEHIND on earth, as well. Yet many in Christianity use this verse to say
that this is what the rapture will be like. Yet they conveniently put
aside the fact that Noah and Lot were actually LEFT BEHIND, not taken
away.
Luke 17:32-33 - Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Lot’s wife turned into salt for looking back. Jesus said remember her and don’t even think of keeping your possessions, but go and flee to the mountains.
Matthew 24:16-18 - Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
He spoke this to the Jews and said this applies to your generation.
Matthew 23:36 - Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Matthew 24:34 - Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Is there any question that “This generation” refers to the people He was speaking to presently? Since this is true, a biblical generation is 40 years. He spoke this in the years between 30-33 A.D. You add forty years you get 70-73 A.D. We can’t put this aside as a coincidence either.
Luke 17:34-36 - I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Look at the words used in this scripture: one shall be taken, the other
shall be left. Noah and Lot were never taken. The unrepentant wicked were
taken by the judgment that befell them. Noah and Lot were left (LEFT
BEHIND). That’s scripturally interpreting what the verse said and not
allowing it to say what we want it to say.
You said, “Now i do believe that if someone doesn’t understand or
interpret an earlier Prophecy then that doesnt mean that they shouldn’t
try to understand the latter.” I didn’t mean that they shouldn’t
try. But if they don’t understand, for instance, Hebrew idioms and
metaphors that were used in the Old Covenant and Jesus using those same
Hebrew idioms and metaphors in the New Covenant -speaking to Jewish people
that understand the underlying meaning of certain terms- then you are
trying to understand later prophecy and writings based on your knowledge
of the current meanings and uses of those terms. Instead of using the
meanings and terms used in the day they were spoken.
***Lastly:
It doesn't say what is the abomination that makes desolate in Daniel.
Daniel 12:11 - And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
It doesn’t tell us in Matthew, either, what is the abomination of desolation.
Matthew 24:15 - When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
But in Luke…
Luke 21:20 - And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
When Jerusalem is encompassed with armies, then they would know that the
desolation is about to happen, the desolation of the city and the
sanctuary (Daniel 9:26). Rome surrounded Jerusalem for 3 ˝ years causing
the inhabitants of the walled city, Jerusalem, to suffer famine,
pestilence, sword and fire. Historically, we know the end result in 70
A.D. This is becoming far too coincidental that the words that Jesus and
the prophets spoke have come to pass, vividly.
Wow, I know this is long. I hope you have the patience to read, study and
consider (like a Berean)
what has been presented.
His name **** for reasons of privacy.
Ended as of 6/8/2001.
Last Edited: 06/03/2009